Oh also our locks always parse super closely, within like dps of each other every fight it would be impossible to come up with a true best. This implies that the new guild member who performs the same, is not valued. But there must be transparency about how you become a full time raider yourself. You have to wait until the item you want is on rot status. Because you start from the bottom of the barrel. Thank you very much for the feedback. Its manageable now. I have to remember which items dropped when because the GRSS upload pools all the items together.
Chops Chops Unignore? Question which seems to fit here. I am not using GRSS yet Just trying to get a handle on the DkP system here before hand. So if I am not using GRSS, and essentially just throwing a bunch of characters and item drops at the raid, do I have to manually total all of the points for the items, and then enter that in the raid and redistribute it?
Or does the system actually look for item drops associated with the raid, total them, and redistribute them? Quote by dj. Also a zero-sum system is unable to integrate reward points for desirable behavior like being on time or negative points for undesirable behavior like not showing up when you promised to , unless you can come up with a complicated formula that balances rewards and punishment to still result in a zero sum.
So many guilds run systems which are not zero-sum. Obviously a system where the sum of points is negative, that is after a number of raids the average DKP score is negative, wouldn't work very well.
A negative-sum system would favor people who go on raids less often over people who go more often, which is counterintuitive. As a result the majority of DKP systems is positive sum. The advantage of a positive sum system is that besides giving people points for every boss killed, you can award them points for valiantly getting repeatedly slaughtered by a new boss, for being punctual, for bringing a field repair bot that helps the whole raid, and for whatever other things you want to reward.
And you can even hand out penalties for bad behavior, although you obviously shouldn't overdo that like the famous Onyxia raid leader Dives handing out DKP left and right. Unfortunately such a system works well for a couple of weeks, but over the long run the disadvantages of a positive sum system become apparent. The further away the sum of points earned minus points spent for epics deviates from zero, the faster the system becomes a source of problems.
Imagine an epic item costs points, but on the average man raid every member receives points, while they find 20 epics. That means that on that raid everybody gets the points to "buy" one epic, but only half the players can spend their points, while the other half can only accumulate the points.
As long as the same 40 people participate in every raid, that is no problem at all. That is because in two raids the first player accumulates rights for two items, and the second player only for one item. As in two raids only 1 items is found for them statistically , the first player always has more rights than the second and always gets first choice.
Of course if an item drops that the first player already has, he passes and the second player gets it. Now the result of this in practice is that you get a ranking of players of each class, with the most frequent player always having the most points. The first item always goes to the first player, the second item to the second player, and so on. If you happen to be the 5th player in line, your chances of getting anything become practically zero. And if you join a guild with such a system already in place and everybody already having accumulated lots of points, even participating in every raid will take months before you get your first item.
Such a system has one advantage, but only for the tanks: You automatically create a "main tank" with the best equipment. There are good arguments for such an arrangement, as a well equipped main tank is important and helps the whole guild. But for the other classes the same distribution will happen, you effectively create a "main druid", "main hunter", "main priest", etc. Especially if the guild is able to beat both MC and Onyxia, you end up with the "main" of a class replacing his tier 1 stuff with tier 2, while somebody behind in the ranking is still running around with tier 0 items.
Thus a positive sum system can create lots of problems: For example recruitment is difficult if the new recruit learns that he only gets his first epic after somebody else gets his next 10 epics. Another possible problem are guild alliances, where a non-even distribution tends to cause lots of inter-guild political strife. But probably the worst disadvantage of the system is that it creates a growing gap between the first player s of each class and the last players of the same class.
There is a substantial risk that after you have your main tank equipped with full tier 2 gear, while the other warriors are much less well equipped, the main tank either gets fed up and quits the game, or he switches to a more uber guild, and sets back the development of the whole guild in the raid circuit by several notches.
Of course people hate setbacks, which causes lots of guild drama, more people leaving and starting a death spiral of setbacks, so the main tank leaving is one of the major causes of guild death. So personally I would prefer either a zero-sum system, or a system with bonuses and rewards where the average number of points given out during a typical raid is very, very close to the amount of points spent during each raid, thus being nearly zero sum.
One way to achieve that are systems where the cost for an epic is not fixed, but where people can bid points. If people are honest, such a bidding system tends to make players spend more points when they have more of them, thus automatically correcting the positive sum imbalances.
Unfortunately the disadvantage of bidding systems is that players have a tendency to collude. For example all the hunters agree not to outbid each other, but work out a separate distribution system among them, and then if the warriors and rogues don't do the same sort of collusion, the hunters end up with more points on average, and are able to outbid the other classes on multi-class items like the famouse hunter weapons.
No system is perfect. Comments: You can work around some of the disadvantages of a positive sum system by allowing people to bid for items.
This introduces a somewhat self-healing market element into the DKP system. The prices are determined by supply and demand; people can save up their DKP if they really want one specific item; players who don't play as much will still have a shot when others blew their DKP on items with prices inflated by a free bidding system. Plus, prices tend to go down as demand decreases, which means that casual players can get a lot of stuff for their DKP later. Inflation can be a bit of a problem in such systems, though.
Beyond the bank solution, there is a more sophisticated system to reward the total time spent raiding, and even to weigh instances differently.
To do this, the DKP spent are not immediately awarded to the raid members, but instead held back until the end of the raiding week. At the end of the week, all spent DKP are distributed to the raid members based on the weighted amount of time they spent. An example:. Each evening, the run is fully added to the database, all items are assigned to players and spent DKP are subtracted immediately as well.
Only DKP earned will remain at 0 until the end of the week. After the week is over on Tuesday night , first the total DKP spent is calculated:. Assume that the Thursday, Monday and Tuesday runs were labeled as progress runs, so their hours get a factor of 1. Then the weighted number of hours spent is calculated:. For control, multiply the DKP handed out per player with the number of players in the runs and compare the sum to total DKP:.
Comparing the points earned in this system with the rewards from zero sum, it can be clearly seen that progress wipe runs have become much more interesting, while farm runs were demoted. Even if no weight was used, farm runs just have the same value per hour as wipe runs. With the introduction of the weight, guild masters and run leaders have a very finely scalable instrument to make runs more or less rewarding.
There are two known drawbacks to this system. The first is that points are not handed out immediately. If two players competing for the same drop are very close to each other, so that one run could make a difference on who gets the item, a system which is updated daily will produce different results from this one. Whether this effect is really a problem can be discussed, because it affects everybody equally. The second drawback is that when rewards is solely based on attendance time, a run with a lot of interruptions and afk time will be rewarded just like a raid with many corpse runs.
This can be taken into account by a weight - if the run leader feels that there was a lot of idle time, a factor smaller than one could be used as weight for that run.
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